PTT遊戲區 / StarCraft (星海爭霸2 - SC2)

Re: [新聞] TotalBiscuit跟Crank的聲明

看板StarCraft (星海爭霸2 - SC2)作者 (1 2 3 4 疾風炭)時間13年前 (2012/10/24 10:36), 編輯推噓85(87推 2噓 181→)
留言270則, 45人參與, 最新討論串17/21 (看更多)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=377311& currentpage=87#1733 http://tinyurl.com/9q5z87c 我們現在來看TotalBiscuit的意見吧 I think it's clear that this entire debacle is a classic case of character assassination. Some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Here's a few things to remember. This is just my personal opinion, just as everything Scoots says on LO3 doesn't necessarily represent the "EG view". 我想，整件事情其實很清楚的就是經典的人格抹殺案例。某些人已經上鉤到連魚線 跟沉子都吃下去了。這只是我個人的意見，就好像Scoots對LO3的發言不代表 "EG的觀點" 1) CranK was never under contract ergo he could leave any time for any reason. His loyalty to the team compelled him to stay to try and fix things. The phone-call verifies that he made attempts to help fix the team and Boxer admits this. He did not breach contract because there was no contract to begin with. Crank從來就沒有簽下任何正式契約，所以他隨時都可以用任何理由離開。 他對於隊伍的忠誠促使他留下來嘗試修正某些問題，電話錄音證實了他確實 嘗試過修正隊伍的問題並且Boxer也承認了這件事情。從頭到尾都沒有毀約 可沿因為根本就沒有任何契約。 2) The phonecall indicates that CranK was not the one who claimed the neck injury as an excuse, this was Jessicas doing. 電話錄音其實說明了Crank不是拿頸傷作為離隊藉口的人，那是Jessica幹的 Choi: I am looking through the conversation right now and I don't see anything like that. You said 'say that you are taking a break due to your neck disc', so I said 'okay, I'll try my best to stop silly rumours from going around'. Then you said 'there is a new player joining us anyways so I plan on sending out that info too.' Jessica : Yeah. I told you to say to people that you are taking a break due to the neck disc (以上是Crank跟Jessica的談話內容) This is highly confusing and muddies the water significantly. It is a fact that CranK suffers neck problems, that is medically verified and has been an issue since his time in SKT1. 這是非常讓人困惑並且把水攪得更混濁的一段對話。實際上Crank因為頸傷已經 困擾很久了，這是有醫療證明而且自從他在SKT1就已經存在的事實。 3) CranK has been accused of lying and being "whiny". On the first point, reading the conversation, it does not appear that he did lie to get out of the team, in fact Jessica instructed him to lie to save face for the team. This is all in the phone-call transcript so it's pretty hard to argue against. On the subject of being "whiny", this is little more than ad-hominem which is lets be honest, what this entire thing seems to be. An awful lot of deflection going on here. The spotlight is on CranK when if you look closely his only crime seems to have been high expectations and speaking ill of his elders. Where are the questions about SlayerS sponsors disappearing? Where are the questions about SlayerS finances? Why do teams disband? It's not because they lose a few players,teams endure that. Teams usually disband because they run out of money, yet we've heard not a peep about that. Why is Jessica so evasive about her and Boxers responsibility? Crank被指控說謊以及整天都在抱怨。首先，看過整段對話之後，看起來 不像是他說謊逃離這個隊伍，而是Jessica要求他說謊好保留隊伍的顏面。 這都是在電話錄音裡面存在的內容，這不是可以輕易否定的事實。 至於Crank整天都在抱怨，我誠實地說，看起來更像是個人身攻擊。 有很多轉移焦點的事情被拿來混水摸魚。如果你仔細的去看這些指控， 他的錯誤看來是因為對隊伍有很高的期待而且說了長輩的壞話。 Slayers的贊助商消失呢? Slayers的財務問題呢? 為什麼隊伍解散了? 你不會因為少了幾個選手就解散，一個隊伍承受得起這種挫折。 隊伍解散的原因是因為他們沒錢了，但是我們到現在沒聽過任何真相。 為什麼Jessica一直都在閃躲他跟Boxer的責任? One final thing. Let's talk about entitlement. It's easy to label players as spoiled brats if you take the view that it's a privilege to be on a team. I don't take that view. I believe it's a privilege for a team to own a player of high calibre. Players shouldn't have to feel grateful or privileged to be on a team anymore than employees should feel grateful and privileged to have a job. They earned it, they deserve it. What do players like CranK have to be grateful for? A bed and a bowl of rice? None of you would be so why do some of you view players as charity volunteers who should accept no pay and poor conditions just for the chance to play videogames to the point where you cause yourself permanent physical damage? Some claim players have an unrealistic view of how things should be and that they are entitled to more than they really deserve. As a business owner who pays his employees fairly and does not take on volunteers, I find this whole idea alien. Employees have certain responsibilities, they are both protected by and bound by a contract and that establishs the quid pro quo between the team owner and the player. That is how you build a proper working relationship and how you keep your company running. 最終，我們來談談權利義務。你可以很輕鬆地把選手說成是中二死小孩， 如果你認為維持隊伍和諧是很重要的義務。我不這樣認為。我相信隊伍有 讓選手成為偉大選手的義務。選手們對隊伍的感激或義務不應該超越員工 對公司該有的感激跟義務。他們是靠自己贏來的，他們值得這些。像Crank 這樣的選手需要感激的是什麼?一張床跟一碗餬口的白飯?你們自己都不應該 因此而感激你的老闆了為什麼你們要求選手們要用類似做慈善義工的心態 去接受無薪且低落的工作狀況，只是為了打電動打到造成永久性身體傷害? 有些人宣稱選手應該要有極度不現實的觀點，事情必須怎麼做以及他們必須 付出超越他們該有的義務。做為一個公平對待自己員工並且不會要求員工 做任何義工的老闆，我認為這整件事情非常異類。員工有他們該有的責任， 他們受限並由契約保護著自己應盡的責任，並因此得到他們該有的報償。 這才是你建立一個良好勞資關係以及確保你的公司正常運作的方法。 ---- Your 2 cents? -- ● ˍ▃ˍ ● 好人不應該受制於正妹 ◢↘ 囧 ↙◣ 而是正妹應該要考慮好人 // ╰︰╯ \\ aokman █◣ˍ＿ 囧 for 囧rz 囧怪客 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 140.113.49.86
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10/24 10:38, , 1F
反推一波了嘛~
10/24 10:38, 1F
推
10/24 10:40, , 2F
看起來只是又把問題推給包 完全無視Cella的聲明
10/24 10:40, 2F
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10/24 10:40, , 3F
Cella都出來打臉了他還可以這樣顧左右而言他
10/24 10:40, 3F
推
10/24 10:40, , 4F
無力的反推...
10/24 10:40, 4F
推
10/24 10:41, , 5F
只能說中西文化看事情的角度不同，觀念也不太一樣
10/24 10:41, 5F
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10/24 10:42, , 6F
重點在於TB根本不把Cella跟Jessica那些發言看得很重要
10/24 10:42, 6F
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10/24 10:42, , 7F
老外都馬很愛說場面話，既然站在Crank這邊當然要力挺XDD
10/24 10:42, 7F
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10/24 10:42, , 8F
因為他認為你讓選手無契約做白工 那從一開始就沒什麼
10/24 10:42, 8F
推
10/24 10:42, , 9F
反推一波 這波能賺到什麼嗎?(主播調
10/24 10:42, 9F
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10/24 10:43, , 10F
你有權利好要求人家的
10/24 10:43, 10F
推
10/24 10:43, , 11F
有沒有財務問題跟是不是有人在隊裡內鬨又不衝突
10/24 10:43, 11F
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10/24 10:44, , 12F
他也說了那不是Slayers真正解散的原因阿
10/24 10:44, 12F
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10/24 10:44, , 13F
這看法在歐美或許能用 但韓國現況就是一堆無契約做白工
10/24 10:44, 13F
推
10/24 10:44, , 14F
TB以CRANK沒合約的角度發言
10/24 10:44, 14F
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10/24 10:45, , 15F
包嫂有說解散是BAD BOY害的嗎
10/24 10:45, 15F
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10/24 10:45, , 16F
財務方面 我猜如果SLAYERS沒有這些問題 包嫂大概會繼續
10/24 10:45, 16F
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10/24 10:45, , 17F
TB改當釣手了
10/24 10:45, 17F
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10/24 10:45, , 18F
出錢直到獲得贊助吧
10/24 10:45, 18F
推
10/24 10:46, , 19F
看來不是只有鬼島才有奴工呀~~
10/24 10:46, 19F
推
10/24 10:46, , 20F
不過我記得一直沒有說S解散是沒錢吧 ?@@
10/24 10:46, 20F
推
10/24 10:46, , 21F
感覺這波反打沒啥決定 雖然換掉了一些農民 但不影響運營
10/24 10:46, 21F
推
10/24 10:46, , 22F
解散包一定也有問題 但是Crank事件明明就自己的問題最大
10/24 10:46, 22F
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10/24 10:46, , 23F
我記得韓國勞工抗爭是蠻凶悍的啦..
10/24 10:46, 23F
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10/24 10:46, , 24F
就是東西方觀點根本性不同啊
10/24 10:46, 24F
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10/24 10:47, , 25F
韓國電競環境更嚴苛吧 只是他們高端報酬不錯 所以大家肯拼
10/24 10:47, 25F
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10/24 10:47, , 26F
老闆經營濫 還要怪員工喔 那他還真雖小
10/24 10:47, 26F
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10/24 10:47, , 27F
TB是直接否定了Boxer/Jessica/Cella有任何權利要求Crank
10/24 10:47, 27F
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10/24 10:47, , 28F
我只覺得TB根本把問題帶歪想模糊焦點= =
10/24 10:47, 28F
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10/24 10:48, , 29F
那有模糊焦點 你有看完那電話內容嗎
10/24 10:48, 29F
推
10/24 10:48, , 30F
西方老闆比較不會COST DOWN也比較重視契約 但在河蟹各
10/24 10:48, 30F
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10/24 10:48, , 31F
種問題的手段上西方公司絕對更勝一籌
10/24 10:48, 31F
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10/24 10:49, , 32F
硬要講就是他人太好 學GANZI直接掉頭走人 然後再裝傻
10/24 10:49, 32F
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10/24 10:49, , 33F
保證現在沒事 反正SLAYER也玩過這套
10/24 10:49, 33F
推
10/24 10:50, , 34F
Cella都打臉了還他人太好..
10/24 10:50, 34F
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10/24 10:51, , 35F
沒這麼誇張吧，Cella明顯就是保皇黨，可以不領錢工作
10/24 10:51, 35F
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10/24 10:52, , 36F
幫幫SlayerS講話也是很合理滴~
10/24 10:52, 36F
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10/24 10:52, , 37F
那個那有打臉 那篇我還覺得奇怪 要比不會找有簽約的打喔
10/24 10:52, 37F
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10/24 10:53, , 38F
那篇還順便證實CRANK有先告知了
10/24 10:53, 38F
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10/24 10:54, , 39F
也證實了他沒有告知包嫂阿
10/24 10:54, 39F
還有 191 則推文
推
10/24 12:22, , 231F
抱怨也聽了 人也派了 沒處理到你大少爺的"問題" = 不理
10/24 12:22, 231F
推
10/24 12:24, , 232F
包嫂事先以為沒啥小問題 "不理"一段時間後才派cella去看
10/24 12:24, 232F
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10/24 12:26, , 233F
抱怨 是包嫂的說法 何況crank每次都講差不多的東西
10/24 12:26, 233F
推
10/24 12:26, , 234F
厲害 Crank你也能不停的護航 你收他多少錢當工讀生阿
10/24 12:26, 234F
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10/24 12:27, , 235F
所謂愛抱怨的人 是那種啥事情都會找理由亂噴的人吧
10/24 12:27, 235F
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10/24 12:27, , 236F
我就看不下去 沒啥證據 酸民腦補太大阿 呵呵
10/24 12:27, 236F
噓
10/24 12:28, , 237F
打高空一哥
10/24 12:28, 237F
推
10/24 12:28, , 238F
你沒看過因為你不順著他就重複抱怨同一件事的人嗎？
10/24 12:28, 238F
推
10/24 12:28, , 239F
你可以看一下嗎?cella有說，他從沒說過要他讓他不出賽。
10/24 12:28, 239F
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10/24 12:28, , 240F
我覺得最厲害的是證據擺在眼前還睜眼說瞎話的人吧..
10/24 12:28, 240F
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10/24 12:29, , 241F
先出家門接觸人群吧呵呵
10/24 12:29, 241F
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10/24 12:29, , 242F
他說過他不"想"，但是沒提出過要cella讓他不出賽。
10/24 12:29, 242F
推
10/24 12:31, , 243F
他在回家後的確有說過他不想出賽，但他在回家前他沒有說。
10/24 12:31, 243F
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10/24 12:32, , 244F
cella: 我以為他還是會出賽... 這要說啥 不就一堆誤解嗎
10/24 12:32, 244F
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10/24 12:32, , 245F
呵呵 人身攻擊來了喔~
10/24 12:32, 245F
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10/24 12:34, , 246F
重複抱怨同一件事的人 是對這件事積怨已深吧 呵呵
10/24 12:34, 246F
推
10/24 12:35, , 247F
看了原文，後面的確有更正Crank是回家之後才對cella提出。
10/24 12:35, 247F
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10/24 12:39, , 248F
不過我得回句，你的假設也是你腦補的:)
10/24 12:39, 248F
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10/24 12:41, , 249F
電梯向下 下篇是有人指控包嫂片面掠奪選手利益
10/24 12:41, 249F
推
10/24 12:42, , 250F
沒錯，超精彩XDD終於有起伏了!!
10/24 12:42, 250F
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10/24 12:43, , 251F
不論誰說謊，待遇爛就是爛
10/24 12:43, 251F
推
10/24 12:44, , 252F
爽...這劇情可以配飯了
10/24 12:44, 252F
推
10/24 12:48, , 253F
TB說的才是正確的經營管理方法，公司(電競隊伍)要茁壯
10/24 12:48, 253F
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10/24 12:49, , 254F
合理公平公開的制度化管理方式有其必要，勞資雙方更應
10/24 12:49, 254F
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10/24 12:50, , 255F
是員工(選手)能力、表現訂定合理契約，權利義務要明確
10/24 12:50, 255F
推
10/24 12:51, , 256F
沒錯啊，他們就血汗工廠然後說"我超用心在辦血汗工廠"
10/24 12:51, 256F
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10/24 12:51, , 257F
根本噁心而已
10/24 12:51, 257F
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10/24 12:51, , 258F
這不止對員工有保障，對資方更是一大控管員工的利器
10/24 12:51, 258F
推
10/24 13:04, , 259F
包哥和cella也是在管理者方面看 是有比crank客觀到哪
10/24 13:04, 259F
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10/24 13:17, , 260F
就說兩邊都有問題才會彼此都有材料爆啦~星海人生真精采!
10/24 13:17, 260F
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10/24 13:18, , 261F
TB的說法較符合西方常見的經營模式~但SLAYER是在泡菜國
10/24 13:18, 261F
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10/24 13:18, , 262F
TB的說法較符合西方常見的經營模式~但SLAYERS是在泡菜國
10/24 13:18, 262F
推
10/24 13:19, , 263F
我覺得鄉民討論的精彩度不惶多讓(嚼嚼
10/24 13:19, 263F
噓
10/24 15:25, , 264F
這根本胡言亂語一通= =
10/24 15:25, 264F
推
10/24 16:02, , 265F
老實說 如果因為沒簽約 所以想來就走 想走就走 比賽不打就
10/24 16:02, 265F
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10/24 16:04, , 266F
不打 那很多sc2戰隊會倒掉吧 不然就是要盡速騙新人簽奴隸
10/24 16:04, 266F
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10/24 16:04, , 267F
合約
10/24 16:04, 267F
推
10/24 20:24, , 268F
Crank恭喜 新戰隊非常挺你 我認為光是這點你就贏了
10/24 20:24, 268F
推
10/24 21:41, , 269F
新戰隊可能還沒看到 crank 歡的一面...還說不準...XD
10/24 21:41, 269F
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10/24 21:49, , 270F
祝他這種心態會有戰隊或公司一直想幫助他...
10/24 21:49, 270F
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