[翻譯] 遊戲開發的加班是否已經太超過了?

看板GameDesign (遊戲設計)作者 (溺於黑暗)時間10年前 (2014/10/28 11:54), 10年前編輯推噓19(19046)
留言65則, 17人參與, 最新討論串1/1
[翻譯] Game Devs: When Does Crunch Cross The Line?(遊戲開發的加班是否已經太超 過了?) 原文:Game Devs: When Does Crunch Cross The Line? http://www.gamesindustry.biz/ articles/2013-10-23-game-devs-when-does-crunch-cross-the-line Last week, Crytek stepped into a world of trouble with a tweet about the development of Ryse: Son of Rome for Xbox One. The company boasted of feeding its crunching team members "more than 11,500 dinners" during the game's development. The #RyseFacts hashtag was co-opted by Twitter to strike out against the idea of crunch development as a good thing. Among those who had negative tweets about crunch culture was former Epic games designer Cliff Bleszinski, who said the practice was "unsustainable". 上個禮拜 Crytek 在Tweeter上發了短文提及在XBox One上開發Ryse: Son of Rome遇到了 加班困境。這間公司自誇自己提供晚餐給加班的同仁。RyseFacts 這個標籤則是大加撻伐 加班是好事這個點子。同樣對加班文化有反感的是前Epic的設計人員Cliff Bleszinski, 他覺得這件事難以忍受。 "'Crunch time' = bad management," tweeted Bleszinski. "This just in: Next gen AAA console launch game with many scripted sequences required lots of crunch." 加班就是壞的管理。下一代的三A級家機產品的劇情都是用很多的加班換來順利推出。 Is crunch a necessary part of our industry? Is it a result of bad management and should be avoided at all costs? GamesIndustry International reached out to a number of industry veterans to see how they felt about crunch. Despite disliking forced crunch, the folks we spoke to seemed to believe that crunch is something that will remain in the industry. 加班是這個產業所必要的嗎?是壞管理所導致的嗎?或是他應該盡力避免的? GamesIndustry International訪問了一定數量的退休人員,詢問他們關於加班的看法。 儘管不喜歡被迫加班,這群受訪者似乎深信加班在業界是常態。 "I'm going to go out on the limb here and might be answering in a way that strays from the quality of life conversation. My belief is that crunch will always occur in our industry, but it's never something that should be relied on," said Obsidian Entertainment CEO Feargus Urquhart. "Why do I think it will always exist? Because, as game makers we create things. Creation is hard. I doubt that Einstein packed it up after 40 hours a week and I doubt that James Cameron puts in his eight and then turns in for the day." Obsidian Entertainment 的CEO Feargus Urquhart說:我現在作個大膽的猜測,先不談 生活的品質的問題。我相信加班在我們的產業中會持續發生,但這並不值得我們誇耀。為 何加班持續發生?因為遊戲開發者就是創造,而創造是艱難的。我認為愛因斯坦不會僅在 每周四十個小時的工作後就下班,詹姆斯卡麥隆也不會在放下他的鏡頭後就休息。 Junction Point Studios founder and game designer Warren Spector said crunch was the result of working with a host of unknown factors in creative mediums. Since game development is always full of unknowns, crunch will always exist in studios that strive for quality. Junction Point Studios的投資人與遊戲企劃Warren Spector 說過加班是與一個未知參 數的藝術媒體戰鬥過程的產物。只要遊戲開發就是充滿了不確定性,為了追求品質,加班 就是必然。 "Look, I'm sure there have been games made without crunch. I've never worked on one or led one, but I'm sure examples exist. That tells me something about myself and a lot about the business I'm in," said Spector. Spector繼續說:聽著,我確信一定有不需要加班就產出的遊戲,但我待過的開發案從未 這樣,雖然我相信一定有例外。這就是我所作的工作與產業。 "We work in a medium of unknowns. We go into projects with, usually, a high level idea and a ship date. We rely on others to execute against those ideas, bringing their own creativity to the table. As we get deeper into the process we discover that things that sounded good on paper don't work in practice. Things that worked in prototype don't work in a fully textured and lit level. And then the folks providing money or distribution randomize and disrupt by demanding demos or screenshots at the most inconvenient times!" 我們在作的是一個未知的媒體。我們的專案通常有一個很抽象的概念,外加一個開發期限 。我們互相依賴彼此來實現這個點子,把創意實現。一但更加深入開發,我們又會發現書 上所說的論點難以在現實實現。運作良好的原型,到了量產貼圖就會出問題。外加投資人 不是只丟錢進來,他們還會隨機丟進搗亂因子,艱難的開發期中多次要求要有展示或截圖 。 "What I'm saying is that games - I'm talking about non-sequels, non-imitative games - are inherently unknowable, unpredictable, unmanageable things. A game development process with no crunch? I'm not sure that's possible unless you're working on a ripoff of another game or a low-ambition sequel. And I've never, personally, been much interested in either - as a player or as a developer. I've never had enough time or money." 我不是說那些續作專案,抄襲遊戲,而是說完全原創,完全未知的產物。這種遊戲開發案 子怎麼可能不加班?除非你正在抄襲或是只是作沒有野心的續作。而我個人不管是從玩家 或開發者的角度來看,都從未想要作這兩種專案。我沒有足夠的時間或經費。 There are some positives to crunch: working through adversity helps bring team members closer together. Former 2K Marin creative director Jordan Thomas and Naughty Dog co-founder and former THQ president Jason Rubin agreed with this idea. 加班有一些好處:渡過困境的團隊會更有向心力。前Marin的創意總監Jordan Thomas 與 Naughty Dog 投資人又是前THQ 總裁Jason Rubin 都同意這個論點。 "To me, the sister concepts of voluntary crunch and even focused, near-term crunch intended to hit specific goals -- are natural when groups of humans compete," Thomas said. "In my personal experience on both sides of the manager/employee divide, if a leader keeps his or her promises about what it's for and when it will end, there can be a net increase in team morale after a sprint finish." 對我來說,自願性加班甚至反而是重點,短暫的加班就是當一群人嘗試把事情做完同時試 圖達到某種目標的表現,從我個人的經驗,不管是管理者或員工的角度,假如領導人達成 關於成果與期限的承諾,衝刺的結束後反而會增加團隊的士氣。 "Crunch sucks, but if it is seen by the team members as a fair cost of participating in an otherwise fantastic employment experience, if they value ownership of the resulting creative success more than the hardship, if the team feels like long hours of collaboration with close friends is ultimately rewarding, and if they feel fairly compensated, then who are we to tell them otherwise?" asked Rubin. Rubin說:加班爛透了,但假如從團隊成員的角度看來,那可能也是一個奇特的團隊經驗 ,假如他們認為創作的結果高過痛苦,假如他們認為與親密戰友長時間的合作是一個終極 的滿足,假如他們能夠獲得回饋,那麼怎麼有辦法可以阻止他們? "The question is: are we looking at a crew team rowing together to the point of collapse and savoring victory together, or are we looking at a drummer beating a drum as the rowers are worked to collapse? I think that can only be answered by the team members themselves." 問題在於,我們是認為他們是一群燃盡生命求取勝利的團隊,還是一群照著指示直到倒下 的划槳手?我想這個問題該由團隊自己回答。 "At times, usually on a Sunday at 2 AM, I've even asked myself, 'Do you like crunching?' When I was younger, I often found myself answering, 'Yes.' There's something about working late into the early morning that binds people," added Spector. "Overcoming adversity can be exhilarating. Seeing the impossible happen because people care that much about what they're doing can turn a group of talented individuals into a team - into a family. And, in retrospect, in later years, when the pain of crunch is forgotten, what you're left with is the pride of having worked on something amazing. Those aspects of crunch are all positive and not to be undervalued." 有好幾次,通常是在禮拜天的凌晨兩點,我曾問過自己,自己是否喜歡加班?當我還年輕 的時候,我會有正面的回答。深夜工作到天明會產生一種超越逆境的愉悅感。就因為人們 在意其成果,就把那些不可能變為可能,把才能的個人組成一個團隊,一個家庭。而且在 多年之後回顧這些加班的痛苦都會被遺忘,所剩下來的只有產生巨作的榮耀。從這角度來 看加班的正面效應無法估計。 One of the big questions that surrounds crunch is why it happens. Was it a result of bad planning and management? Did features just not work and need to be redone? Did the publisher decide that the game needed to go in a different direction? How studios reached crunch time and how long they spend there is important. 其中一個問題是為什麼需要加班?這是因為管理人員的錯誤嗎?是因為規畫失誤所以需要 重工嗎?還是發行商認為遊戲需要走另一個方向?開發者如何對待加班,花多少時間加班 也是重要的問題。 "What I think is important in the conversation about crunch is to talk about why it happened. If crunch happens because it was initially planned for (i.e. there was no way to get the game done from day one without crunch), then that is poor planning, bad management, and putting an unacceptable burden on people and their families," said Urquhart. Urquhart說:為什麼我在這次談話中認為加班這件事很重要就是想要知道為何會需要加班 ?假如加班是因為一定需要(也就是說不加班不能達成任務)那麼就是計畫與管理的失誤 ,也就是把這些責任丟給團隊成員及他們的家庭用加班來承擔。 "If sustained involuntary crunch is fundamental to your business model, something is deeply wrong," added Thomas. "If a manager sets unrealistic goals, the sprint will fail, and become a death march. Poor decisions multiply as fatigue sets in, relationships decay beyond repair, and so on. Similar to cellular damage from radiation, there's a 'walking ghost' stage where you've already ruined your best people from over-exposure to it, and they're not even manifesting symptoms yet." 假如自願性加班是這個商業模式的基底,那一定有事情搞錯了。假如一個管理者試著達成 不可能的目標,衝刺終將導致失敗,變成衝往懸崖。錯誤的決定還會讓人加倍疲勞,關係 受損無法修復。就像細胞被輻射照射,造成一堆殭屍,這種行為摧毀著你最好的團隊而還 不自知。 The developers that spoke to GamesIndustry International seem united in the idea that crunch is a necessary evil and can even be positive in some aspects. There are negative aspects that should be avoided, but some believe there's a certain creative fire in the race towards a deadline. 開發者對GamesIndustry International 說的論點似乎歸納出加班是必要之惡,甚至還有 好處。負面效應應該可以避免,但是有些人覺得這反而是衝往終點前創作的燃料。 "I've gone through periods of crunch that have exhausted me and strained my personal life," said Urquhart. "I've also gone through crunch periods, albeit much shorter ones, where I feel I was extremely productive and created amazing things. If I had to sum it up - crunch time, duct tape, and the force all have something similar - they each have a light side and a dark side." Urquhart說:我加班過很多次,掏空與擠壓我的私人生活。我也曾經在加班時有無比的創 造力與成果。假如要我總結,加班就像膠帶,有正反兩面。 "Can we do better?" asked Spector. "I'm sure we can. We probably should. Excessive crunch - anything more than a couple of weeks to a month at a stretch, to my mind - puts relationships and health at risk. That's a high price to pay for a quality game. But 'can' and 'should' are easy words to throw around. After 30 years of making games I'm still waiting to find the wizard who can avoid crunch entirely without compromising at a level I'm unwilling to accept." Spector說:我們能做得更好嗎?當然可以。我們應該要做得更好。超過一個禮拜的過度 加班會把健康與關係至於險境。要這樣產出一個高品質遊戲付出的成本過高。但說起來簡 單,三十年的遊戲製作機驗後,我仍等待某個魔術師來告訴我不需要加班就可以做出我可 以接受的關卡。 In the end, Thomas cautioned studio management to think about the human costs of crunch. It's a tool in the toolbox, but not every problem is a nail requiring a hammer. 最後,Thomas 警告團隊管理層要思考加班的人力成本問題,加班是一個榔頭,但不是每 個問題都得用他來敲。 "Questioning the ethics of crunch is sane, yet I find that it quickly escalates to 'is hierarchy inherently evil?' or degenerates into a lot of conditional statements about when it's 'worth it'," he said. "But even from the tactical perspective of some bipedal reptile, long inured to any concern over quality of life, there are seriously diminishing returns with crunch as policy. A business is made of human beings. You invest in them, or you're the lord of an empty house." 討論加班的道德問題是理智的,但我發現這個討論會變成是在討論加班是否完全邪惡,或 是歸結一切變成是否值得。從兩族爬蟲生物的戰略角度來說,如果我們長時間關注於生活 品質之外的事(專案成果),加班就會逐漸變成唯一的方法。商業行為是由人類產生。若 不投注在人自己身上,讓自己豐富起來,最終就會變成行屍走肉。 -- "May the Balance be with U"(願平衡與你同在) 視窗介面遊戲設計教學,討論,分享。歡迎來信。 視窗程式設計(Windows CLR Form)遊戲架構設計(Game Application Framework) 遊戲工具設計(Game App. Tool Design ) 電腦圖學架構及研究(Computer Graphics) -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 220.135.205.117 ※ 文章網址: http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/GameDesign/M.1414468446.A.A3E.html ※ 編輯: NDark (220.135.205.117), 10/28/2014 11:55:31 ※ 編輯: NDark (220.135.205.117), 10/28/2014 12:00:07

10/28 12:03, , 1F
"crunch time, duct tape, and the force" ←怎麼可以漏掉
10/28 12:03, 1F

10/28 12:03, , 2F
原力的梗呢 XD
10/28 12:03, 2F

10/28 12:40, , 3F
因為我專注在膠帶上XD
10/28 12:40, 3F

10/28 14:35, , 4F
10/28 14:35, 4F

10/28 14:49, , 5F
DUCK TAPEEEEEEEEE
10/28 14:49, 5F

10/28 14:49, , 6F
台灣翻大力膠布好像不夠有力
10/28 14:49, 6F

10/28 17:15, , 7F
看來這不只是台灣的問題 LOL
10/28 17:15, 7F

10/28 20:56, , 8F
推推推
10/28 20:56, 8F

10/28 23:05, , 9F
我覺得加班不要常規化都是可接受的
10/28 23:05, 9F

10/28 23:05, , 10F
台灣的問題在沒有創意還要加班作那些無聊的routine work
10/28 23:05, 10F

10/28 23:06, , 11F
這樣就根本就非原文說的「加班是因為創意產出是艱難的」
10/28 23:06, 11F

10/28 23:06, , 12F
而是「加班是為了節省常駐的人力成本」.....
10/28 23:06, 12F

10/28 23:20, , 13F
推樓上XD
10/28 23:20, 13F

10/28 23:58, , 14F
某台灣遊戲公司還會要求員工平均每天加班一小時呢
10/28 23:58, 14F

10/29 01:02, , 15F
台灣很多公司的問題是加班沒錢拿
10/29 01:02, 15F

10/29 01:20, , 16F
反了吧。創意產品不會是工作越久就越能做出來的東西
10/29 01:20, 16F

10/29 01:21, , 17F
反而是抄襲的複製品,是要拚市場速度的。那才需要加班趕工
10/29 01:21, 17F

10/29 10:02, , 18F
創意也是需要時間的
10/29 10:02, 18F

10/29 10:13, , 19F
新產品才需要時間,因為要從樸石磨亮.
10/29 10:13, 19F

10/29 10:13, , 20F
抄襲不需要因為已經被市場驗證過了
10/29 10:13, 20F

10/29 11:04, , 21F
這邊的問題不是需不需要時間,
10/29 11:04, 21F

10/29 11:05, , 22F
而是能不能準確預測需要多少時間
10/29 11:05, 22F

10/29 11:05, , 23F
預測錯誤而加班和一開始就以加班為前提是不一樣的
10/29 11:05, 23F

10/29 11:06, , 24F
創新會影響到前者,而慣老闆會影響到後者
10/29 11:06, 24F

10/29 17:45, , 25F
創意非常需要時間,要開發新玩法遠比抄襲需要更多時間
10/29 17:45, 25F

10/29 17:46, , 26F
不斷的try-error下加班是沒辦法的..特別是進入flow
10/29 17:46, 26F

10/29 17:46, , 27F
status之後,很難說下班就下班啊
10/29 17:46, 27F

10/29 17:46, , 28F
這就是原文說的「適度的加班是這個產業的必須品」的理由
10/29 17:46, 28F

10/29 22:40, , 29F
抄襲不需要加班?那中國那些每天加到半夜12點的團隊,原來
10/29 22:40, 29F

10/29 22:41, , 30F
都是在搞創意
10/29 22:41, 30F

10/29 22:41, , 31F
我上面可沒說創意不用時間,而重點是創意不是用硬加班能趕
10/29 22:41, 31F

10/29 22:42, , 32F
出來的。問題是,抄襲拚的就是時間性,人家2個月抄出來
10/29 22:42, 32F

10/29 22:55, , 33F
2個月調整,2個月上線準備,半年內抄出一隻有機會獲利產品
10/29 22:55, 33F

10/29 22:56, , 34F
台灣花半年做出來的還像專題作品。除了經驗能力外,人家一
10/29 22:56, 34F

10/29 22:57, , 35F
周花60小時在抄在拚,台灣加了班,一周也到不了48小時
10/29 22:57, 35F

10/29 22:58, , 36F
然後說抄襲不需要時間?說個台灣不花時間抄成功的來聽聽吧
10/29 22:58, 36F

10/29 23:19, , 37F
沒人說抄襲不用時間啊 你覺得A>B代表B=0?
10/29 23:19, 37F

10/30 08:58, , 38F
樓樓上犯了一個嚴重的錯誤 原創作很久是因為他們不需加班.
10/30 08:58, 38F

10/30 08:59, , 39F
事實是原創作也是"必須"Time To Market.
10/30 08:59, 39F

10/30 08:59, , 40F
實際上是: 已經加班了還是做了這麼久
10/30 08:59, 40F

10/31 01:40, , 41F
啊?那這是誰說的???
10/31 01:40, 41F

10/31 01:40, , 42F
xxxxx: 新產品才需要時間,因為要從樸石磨亮.
10/31 01:40, 42F

10/31 01:41, , 43F
xxxxx: 抄襲不需要因為已經被市場驗證過了
10/31 01:41, 43F

10/31 01:42, , 44F
樓樓上是指誰?我想肯定不是我對吧?誰說了原創不需加班?
10/31 01:42, 44F

10/31 01:43, , 45F
我從頭到尾講的只有:抄襲非常需要加班。創意則是需要時間
10/31 01:43, 45F

10/31 01:44, , 46F
且創意所需要的總時間可能是遠超過抄襲一支產品的總時間,但
10/31 01:44, 46F

10/31 01:45, , 47F
創意往往需要更正常的作息才能製作出真正好的創意產品
10/31 01:45, 47F

10/31 01:47, , 48F
加班累爆時不良工時,不見得適合來產生真正優良的創意產品
10/31 01:47, 48F

10/31 01:48, , 49F
而抄襲拚的是市場時間性,時間的重要性往往遠大於產品品質
10/31 01:48, 49F

10/31 01:50, , 50F
加班硬操的不良工作時間,或許還能用來應付做一個抄襲產品
10/31 01:50, 50F

10/31 01:51, , 51F
且抄襲作品,你不硬操,人家操還搶到市場尾巴,慢人一步的
10/31 01:51, 51F

10/31 01:52, , 52F
市場時機錯過了還抄,根本沒用。要不要看看現在幾隻搞錯市
10/31 01:52, 52F

10/31 01:52, , 53F
場時機,抄了晚市場不知道多少部的作品,是什麼成績呢
10/31 01:52, 53F

10/31 01:53, , 54F
【抄襲不需要時間因為已經被市場驗證過了】真的由衷希望,
10/31 01:53, 54F

10/31 01:54, , 55F
台灣真正還有心想養活自己,不讓台灣自製研發斷根的團隊
10/31 01:54, 55F

10/31 01:54, , 56F
一定要好好思考這句話!
10/31 01:54, 56F

10/31 01:55, , 57F
觀念思想上的錯誤,才是造成目前台灣遊戲產業最大的禍因
10/31 01:55, 57F

10/31 06:07, , 58F
好兇 :(
10/31 06:07, 58F

10/31 09:24, , 59F
"創意則是需要時間" 所以才要加班啊. 傻瓜.
10/31 09:24, 59F

10/31 16:54, , 60F
創造性的工作難免會加班,
10/31 16:54, 60F

10/31 16:55, , 61F
但大多數加班的工作都不是創造性的工作。
10/31 16:55, 61F

10/31 16:58, , 62F
非創造性工作的加班只是管理無能和減少溝通成本的結果.
10/31 16:58, 62F

11/01 13:51, , 63F
這時候 http://goo.gl/jCwzxD 這本經點就該就再看一次
11/01 13:51, 63F

11/03 12:57, , 64F
未看先猜 人月神話...
11/03 12:57, 64F

11/07 08:52, , 65F
同意g大不過真的有點兇
11/07 08:52, 65F
文章代碼(AID): #1KJnDUe- (GameDesign)
文章代碼(AID): #1KJnDUe- (GameDesign)