[討論] 目前TI4還沒被選的十支英雄

看板DotA2 (刀塔)作者 (lol)時間11年前 (2014/07/14 12:56), 11年前編輯推噓31(31039)
留言70則, 19人參與, 最新討論串1/1
原文:http://goo.gl/VpYFbU With the playoffs now over, we have a decent idea of the meta going into TI4 proper. Only 10 heroes weren't picked at all during the playoffs: Lina Crystal Maiden Huskar Bounty Hunter Night Stalker Keeper of the Light Phantom Lancer Bloodseeker Slardar Spirit Breaker With such a low number of characters not making the cut for such a wide variety of play we've seen, it's worth taking a look at each hero individually and trying to understand why. For now, let's look at the first 5 heroes who failed to be picked: Lina Competitive Record this patch: 3-2 Notable players: Illidan Lina is a hero who always seems to be pushed in weird directions when she gets a change. For a while, it looked like Icefrog was determined to make her into Sniper with range buffs. However, she has slowly been receiving minor buffs to her skills: Light Strike Array now scales, at least a little - going up to 1.9 seconds at max level Fiery Soul's movement speed boost is a bit higher, representing +3% speed at max stacks, along with a duration increase to let her reach maximum stacks off of only Dragon Slave Dragon Slave's reverse-cone effect is no longer as prominent, allowing her to aim long-range waves easier The Aghanim's upgrade to Laguna Blade is an incredible asset to her late game power That said, she's still not being picked. The biggest reason is that Lina no longer fits well into the support role important to the 6.81 meta. Supports need to roam earlier and longer. Their mana supply needs to last for several ganks, and they need the range and speed to pull it off early - Blink Dagger needs to empower them, not enable them. Lina doesn't fit this because she's actually a Core. If you look at her few but incredible sucesses, core Lina can be a surprisngly devastating role, and allow her to pick up the important items she needs to stay relevant - Aghanim's Scepter being the biggest of them. With Aghanims she can act as a powerful disruption to "safe" late game carries in BKB, paired with her ability to flash down larger pushes (though not as well as more popular picks). What does Lina need to make the cut? Speed. Either in the form of a base speed increase, or rescaling one of her nukes to be a friendlier single-point investment so that Fiery Soul can be on display sooner. Without it, Lina is doomed to always be overlooked for cores that can do more earlier. Crystal Maiden Competitive Record this patch: 4-3 Notable players: j4 CM has had some rough patches. While she was enjoying a bit of popularity a few months ago, 6.80 shoved her right back down to obscurity with a harsh intelligence nerf. Paired with the one she received not long before in 6.79c, she lost a total of 5 int, 3 base damage, and 65 starting mana. On a hero whose base stats and stat gains were already very mediocre, this was enough to make sure her pick rate plummeted (CM is now tied for the lowest Base Int, with Enchantress). Her issues revolve more around team configuration than her individual nerfs, however. Always being a very low starting strength and gain, her base move speed of 280 has been a limiting factor for a long time. Once the meta began shifting heavily to minute-0 roams, boots first became a near requirement if she wanted to keep up. Whereas her most successful plays are often found as a strictly lane support (Datdota measures almost all her recent wins at over 95% In-Lane time), Crystal Nova and Frostbite are both very strong skills to roam with another stun. But roaming for CM requires that initial investment into either her speed or her survivability - meaning the team needs another hard support to fuel the team with shared tangos, wards, sentries, the courier, etc. While some teams have attempted strategies that start one of their supports with literally 0 net worth - 625 gold worth of consumables and shares - the success stories are few and far between. What does CM need right now to make the cut? Less gold reliance. For a support, she requires far too much investment to meet the same risk:reward other supports offer in this core-heavy gameplay. A few base points of Int returned, or even a minor boost to her starting strength would go a long way to her returning to the pick screen. Huskar Competitive Record this patch: 0-2 Notable players: None really (one-offs) Huskar is an odd one. If you look through his stat gains and the raw amount of buffs he's received, you would think he'd be a solid choice for pocket strats, or even a fringe pickup to fight bulky lineups. But he's unpopular and unsuccessful. The most obvious reason for this is the riskiness of his playstyle: aggression without options. He goes in deep on a core, has to hurt himself to enable his steroid, and rarely-if-ever has an escape route. The obvious reward is that you can take an enemy core to half right as the fight starts, potentially buying you space to deal with the others. In reality however, this plan fails in a lot of ways. Most importantly, Huskar has no options once BKBs are out in force. Unlike a lot of other BKB-limited heroes however, he can't even reliably get his initiation off: the slow cast time and travel time of his ultimate give professional players more than enough time to BKB, Disrupt, or any other variety of options that counteract all the gain he offers. Past that, his once-orb damage steroid works against him in two ways; not only is it blocked by BKB, it's damage is a DoT investment. While that is not always bad, it means that compared to direct-damage add steroids, it buys more time for the target to fight back (and possibly win) or be saved, prolonging the time your "gank" in a fight takes. Huskar also has a somewhat unique problem: he has to do a lot of math. When you're going into a fight as most heroes, a team can figure out what they need to invest on a given target. X attacks will kill them in a gank, Y spells will bring them low enough to finish, etc. Huskar needs to figure that his ult will do 50% (before magic resist) to both parties, then 20 damage/second/spear he gets off. While this may not seem like a big problem (and it isn't in pickoffs), in a fight this means it's harder for him to break away and switch targets. While a regular core can invest a certain amount of attacks to a target and then switch, Huskar needs to figure out when the target will die from his stacked DoTs, and then switch; otherwise, he's essentially wasting DPS in a fight, which is already very limited by his forced item selection. Add in the fact that he's burning down his own HP and probably trading it off for a regen factor that scales directly with his farm, and that makes him almost an anti-snowball - early sacrifices for the team will give a temporary lead, but reduce his usefulness later. What does Huskar need to make the cut? That's a hard question. He's already seen several reworks, a few big buffs, and a solid Aghanim's boost. Outside of a drastic change (his ult partially working through BKB? Spears working through BKB?) or another rework, Huskar might be doomed to obscurity for quite a while. Bounty Hunter Competitive Record this patch: 2-5 Notable players: mouz in general For a hero that wasn't particularly unpopular just a month or two ago, Bounty dropped off the map right around the time 6.81 hit. Which is odd, considering for the last 6 months all he's received are (relatively minor) buffs with no nerfs since 6.77. What happened? In two words: Blink Dagger. The removal of blink daggers mana cost enabled a lot of heroes that deal with Bounty Hunter in a variety of ways to become more popular. This, paired with his innately low mobility (Track being his only real boost there, when you consider that competitive teams are often highly aware of invisible movement), pushed him out of the meta even as he got more buffs to his core skills. Another factor is in play though. Bounty Hunter is a great pick for a big reason: Track Gold. It can keep your team ahead, or help you catch up from behind. The issue is that playing from behind, one of Bounty Hunter's best traits, has become a harder and harder position to work from. As the metagame cycled to its current state, where you have much more equal cores compared to the classic 1-5 farm configuration, it become evident that Bounty Hunter has a hard time keeping up, and can be a hindrance to the team. Pair this with the fact that some of his favorite partners/supports have also fallen from popularity (more on that later), and he disappears. What does BH need to make the cut? Being at the whim of items to the extent that Bounty is makes it hard to say that the hero needs to thrive. My guess is that if we see some fairly innocent looking buffs to things like Urn, Drum, or Desolator, Bounty could make some minor appearances again. The issue there is that none of those items really need looking at, and would buff just as many other, better heroes as they would Bounty. Night Stalker Competitive Record this patch: 4-4 Notable players: none (one-offs) Night Stalker is another hero firmly in Huskar territory: looks great on paper, fails in the field. Receiving nothing but buffs for almost 5 years (though often simply left out of patch notes, which can be seen as a nerf in its own respect), he's starting to feel like a left-behind memory who was never updated to the current meta, and never can without serious changes. His biggest issue is the raw investment you need to make just to become useful. He requires good farm and good exp to reach the kind of power that someone like Dragon Knight can do even if he's being stopped from farming by roamers or aggressive support play. While he has good stat gains, his base stats aren't enough to give him lane presence without investing in items that don't operate well in the current meta - Vanguard namely, but reliance on being the Urn carrier as well hurts him. The biggest change to Nightstalker actually rolled in recently though, and isn't officially a change to him - but it is in every way. The Day/Night cycle was changed from 6 minutes to 4 minutes. While on an immediate level, this seems like it would buff Night Stalker - who when the change occurred, was often already using the first night as a "farm night", not getting aggressive until the second night at 18 minutes - it seems to have actually hurt him. This cycle change means that he will very rarely be Level 6 by the first night. What this means is that he will get maybe one night extension in. While previously you did not want to extend the first "farm night" more than once or twice, it still means that he hits his supposed early game power point - Lv7-8 - right as the first night is ending, instead of near the start/middle of the first night. This makes him more susceptible to ganks during this time, meaning he wastes more of the first night than previously. It also means that by the second night - 12 to 16 minutes, slightly adjusted for the ult usage he may have gotten off - he's potentially not Lv11, as he didn't have consistent night to operate in from Lv7-11, while before it was not uncommon for a Night Stalker to end the first night at Lv11 with some aggressive play. This means the second night may not be as long, hurting him even more. When you add in how aggressive a Night Stalker has to be, and the amount of relatively poor item choices required to keep up, he becomes a highly situational pick with a lot of risk. What does Night Stalker need to make the cut? A direct buff to his ultimate would be my first guess. However, seeing as he's already received that - with his enemies getting less vision in his ult, a powerful tool - he may be up for some base stat increases. Some additional strength, or even intelligence to buy some space for silencing escape artists like Naga and Tinker, might be enough to get him back to the mid lane. This concludes part 1, the first 5 heroes who didn't get selected. I'll work on writing up some information on the last 5 after some sleep. -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 123.194.204.26 ※ 文章網址: http://www.ptt.cc/bbs/DotA2/M.1405313802.A.E05.html

07/14 13:00, , 1F
C9在不久前選了BH,剩下的我看光猴搞不好也會有隊伍拿
07/14 13:00, 1F

07/14 13:11, , 2F
去年大熱門角總會被一路nerf 看來今年LR,SM皮都要繃緊了
07/14 13:11, 2F

07/14 13:14, , 3F
這是自己寫的嗎 轉載的話要附出處
07/14 13:14, 3F

07/14 13:16, , 4F
天怒因為禁咒buff不少 使用率果然上升很多
07/14 13:16, 4F

07/14 13:17, , 5F
冰女有一點沒寫到 就是淨化藥水buff了 幾乎所有輔助都魔無
07/14 13:17, 5F

07/14 13:17, , 6F
限 冰女光環整個廢掉
07/14 13:17, 6F

07/14 13:18, , 7F
看來冰法的回魔要再buff了
07/14 13:18, 7F

07/14 13:18, , 8F
比起LINA,我覺得LESHRAC要打輔助簡單許多
07/14 13:18, 8F
※ 編輯: rejoin (123.194.204.26), 07/14/2014 13:19:17

07/14 13:19, , 9F
電魂其實勝率不高 應該不太會砍 之前黑鳥也沒砍吧
07/14 13:19, 9F

07/14 13:20, , 10F
因為leshrac 功能多一點 多了破塔能力
07/14 13:20, 10F

07/14 13:20, , 11F
且現在連電都會緩 連續buff了這麼多版本才難得被選..
07/14 13:20, 11F

07/14 13:21, , 12F
看需求可以只要點兩招,走速跟A人都優秀很多,暈也比較遠
07/14 13:21, 12F

07/14 13:21, , 13F
倒是[A]被淘汰了 很可能見不到光法分身猴這套了
07/14 13:21, 13F

07/14 13:21, , 14F
天怒倒是真的很無腦 沉默下去丟兩招就死了
07/14 13:21, 14F

07/14 13:21, , 15F
單單天怒一個人其實沒那麼好殺
07/14 13:21, 15F

07/14 13:22, , 16F
但天怒打輔助 抓人一定有人幫你定 就是穩殺
07/14 13:22, 16F

07/14 13:23, , 17F
配void 蝙蝠這種強控但本體低火力的就很強
07/14 13:23, 17F

07/14 13:30, , 18F
莉那的後手暈太笨重了 風險跟回報不成比例 要接後手不如白
07/14 13:30, 18F

07/14 13:30, , 19F
虎船長 要ae暈人不如各式穿刺 動作太明顯還不能騙人
07/14 13:30, 19F

07/14 13:32, , 20F
不曉得最後會不會所有英雄都被選過,那就太猛了
07/14 13:32, 20F

07/14 13:34, , 21F
天怒那個增傷太狠 就算沒控配個法傷也是秒 navi拿槍兵配
07/14 13:34, 21F

07/14 13:34, , 22F
狙擊一下脆皮就快死了
07/14 13:34, 22F

07/14 15:43, , 23F
lina跟lion比起來多了那個打輔助無用的被動技
07/14 15:43, 23F

07/14 15:45, , 24F
跟lesh比起來推塔又不夠快...
07/14 15:45, 24F

07/14 15:54, , 25F
冰蛙近來對Lina的加強幾乎都是放在buff她的Range/被動的增幅
07/14 15:54, 25F

07/14 15:55, , 26F
程度, 顯然是想讓Lina成為一個偽核, 但Lina在比賽中被考慮時
07/14 15:55, 26F

07/14 15:56, , 27F
幾乎都是會把她放在4,5號位, 而這兩個位置讓她實在很難打成
07/14 15:56, 27F

07/14 15:56, , 28F
一個核心....
07/14 15:56, 28F

07/14 16:04, , 29F
冰法的話, 則是近兩個patch讓她越來越Blonde了, 少了總共5點
07/14 16:04, 29F

07/14 16:16, , 30F
的起始智力, 就算考慮到靈氣對她本身的雙倍加成, 這Nerf對她
07/14 16:16, 30F

07/14 16:17, , 31F
開始的影響還是非常顯著; 以前冰女曾被稱為"最強的Lv2英雄",
07/14 16:17, 31F

07/14 16:45, , 32F
blonde是什麼 虛心求教
07/14 16:45, 32F

07/14 17:02, , 33F
字面上是金髮的意思, 俚語中會用來暗喻這女生是天然呆/笨蛋
07/14 17:02, 33F

07/14 17:10, , 34F
長知識了 謝謝
07/14 17:10, 34F

07/14 18:35, , 35F
請問一下earth spirit(土靈)在哪場出現的阿
07/14 18:35, 35F

07/14 18:36, , 36F
想看看職業玩家的打法XD
07/14 18:36, 36F

07/14 18:39, , 37F
土靈還在默認ban喔,跟他是好朋友的還有鳳凰和恐怖利刃
07/14 18:39, 37F

07/14 18:40, , 38F
喔喔喔 難怪我在上面看不到 那想請教一下默認ban是因為imba?
07/14 18:40, 38F

07/14 18:42, , 39F
謝謝
07/14 18:42, 39F

07/14 18:59, , 40F
dota已經放了,不過dota2不知道啥原因還沒
07/14 18:59, 40F

07/14 19:03, , 41F
請問默認ban的意思是 大家有默契都不選他這樣@"@?
07/14 19:03, 41F

07/14 19:06, , 42F
默認ban意思是沒有放進英雄池裡 所以沒辦法選
07/14 19:06, 42F

07/14 19:07, , 43F
也叫auto-ban,改動較大/新英雄等平衡度還沒測試完的會放
07/14 19:07, 43F

07/14 19:10, , 44F
出bug還沒修好的應該也會被丟去auto-ban,隔壁棚天天發生XD
07/14 19:10, 44F

07/14 20:38, , 45F
沒辦法 ドラまた被冰蛙加強的方向和玩家定位的方向
07/14 20:38, 45F

07/14 20:38, , 46F
不太一樣
07/14 20:38, 46F

07/14 21:06, , 47F
C9那場他們狂用BH殺クーリエ XDDD
07/14 21:06, 47F

07/14 22:42, , 48F
有medusa嗎? 請問一下是哪一場@@
07/14 22:42, 48F

07/14 22:46, , 49F
medusa那場被電報 我忘了是哪個國外戰隊最phase2最後有用
07/14 22:46, 49F

07/14 22:52, , 50F
メデューサ有人在小組賽用過 不過被打爆了XDDD
07/14 22:52, 50F

07/14 23:41, , 51F
冰女 光法 PL 漁人 都沒人pick還蠻令人意外的
07/14 23:41, 51F

07/14 23:41, , 52F
slardar可以期待DK選
07/14 23:41, 52F

07/14 23:41, , 53F
冰法就比較難 光法PL原本[A]很有機會用 但他們掰了
07/14 23:41, 53F

07/14 23:42, , 54F
人稱R[A]T doto 可惜被EG送回家
07/14 23:42, 54F

07/14 23:45, , 55F
這版本已經不適合冰女了QQ
07/14 23:45, 55F

07/14 23:51, , 56F
冰女被削5點智力 是真的蠻傷的 有在使用所以感同身受
07/14 23:51, 56F

07/14 23:52, , 57F
講錯 削3點智力 2點攻擊力
07/14 23:52, 57F

07/14 23:53, , 58F
宵完就不想用了 等冰蛙buff回來..
07/14 23:53, 58F

07/14 23:53, , 59F
從本來的LV1 LV2 FB流氓 變成初期一套E+V魔就乾了...
07/14 23:53, 59F

07/15 00:26, , 60F
把阿福和熊熊BAN掉布狗就...
07/15 00:26, 60F

07/15 00:44, , 61F
今年我還沒看到IO+CK 還是我錯過了?
07/15 00:44, 61F

07/15 00:48, , 62F
有阿 [A]對EG那場就有出
07/15 00:48, 62F

07/15 02:44, , 63F
冰女6.79時起始智力是21, 6.80時砍2點智力但不動基礎攻擊,
07/15 02:44, 63F

07/15 02:45, , 64F
6.81時靜砍3點智力, 所以共砍了5點沒錯XD 曾經還算冰雪聰明
07/15 02:45, 64F

07/15 02:45, , 65F
的冰女只剩冰雪了
07/15 02:45, 65F

07/15 03:08, , 66F
SOGA 還真的砍了5智力 冰蛙快BUFF回來吧 :D
07/15 03:08, 66F

07/16 11:57, , 67F
從Elsa砍到Anna(?
07/16 11:57, 67F

07/16 20:06, , 68F
NS沒人拿不意外了 現在的節奏..day sucker night sucker
07/16 20:06, 68F

07/16 20:07, , 69F
記得前一兩版的時候有陣子NAVI有拿來試陣容..發現不行會gg
07/16 20:07, 69F

07/16 20:07, , 70F
所以就沒用了...
07/16 20:07, 70F
文章代碼(AID): #1JmsCAu5 (DotA2)
文章代碼(AID): #1JmsCAu5 (DotA2)