[心得] 關於PvZ後期目前的狀況
看板StarCraft (星海爭霸2 - SC2)作者kira925 (1 2 3 4 疾風炭)時間14年前 (2012/10/17 17:55)推噓58(61推 3噓 115→)留言179則, 47人參與討論串1/1
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375971
(這是一篇TL論壇的文章 不過我覺得寫的還不錯 所以就貼過來）
要戰自由之翼平衡的自己去開別篇 這篇都是在說蟲群之心
In its current state, the late game still revolves around a single spell:
Vortex. Whether or not the Protoss or Zerg wins is completely dependent upon
whether or not a strong Vortex is executed. It's so significant that a player
with a large lead in map control, economy, and upgrades can be completely
obliterated by the other if only one Vortex does or does not go in their
favor. This is a problem - it stagnates the matchup, forces turtling-style
games and certain unit compositions, and makes games able to be decided on
one moment rather than the culmination of good or bad play by either side.
Because of this, I think it should be removed, and a lot of other things
should be changed to make the late-game less swingy.
目前來說，PvZ的後期全部都圍繞在一個法術:黑洞。神族或者蟲族在後期的
勝負幾乎可說是完全決定在黑洞技能施放的成功或失敗。他的影響巨大到不
管玩家擁有多好的地圖控制、經濟領先、科技升級，都可能因為黑洞施放的
成敗而完全逆轉。這是個問題：這讓遊戲緩慢下來，而且鼓勵選手慫起來搞
無敵組合，並且讓遊戲在十秒鐘之內決定一切勝負，而不是根據之前雙方所
累積的各種決定對錯。因此，我想這個技能應該被移除，而且有很多的事情
應該被修改來撼動目前的後期PvZ。
Why is Vortex so critical for Protoss? (hint: It's all about the air!)
====為什麼黑洞對神族這麼重要====
Vortex gives the Protoss the one thing it is severely lacking otherwise in
either available units or in tech options: Anti-mass air. It is the only
weapon Protoss has that can cost-effectively combat extremely heavy numbers
of Zerg air units and can effectively punish them for overproducing them.
Sure, Protoss has a lot of stuff that can do damage to air - Blink Stalkers,
Psionic Storm, Archons, and Stargate units. However, when taking into account
other factors, these are very weak options when all factors are considered.
Let me go through each below:
黑洞彌補了神族在對空上非常重要的一個缺陷：對於海量空軍的無力。
這是神族唯一的交換比極高，可以反制鉅量蟲族空軍單位並且可以有效
懲罰蟲族只造空軍的法術。當然，你可以說神族有很多可以對空的武器：
閃追/心靈風暴/白球還有星際之門的單位。但是，把其他的因素考慮進去
以後，你會發現這些都是相當無力的對空反制。
以下是我的論述：
Stalkers
Stalkers are one of the lowest DPS-per-supply and DPS-per-cost units in the
game. While mobile, they are extremely inefficient. ItWhoSpeaks did a
wonderful write-up about this concept in his thread here:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960 . Let's compare them to
marines and the new HotS Hydra as well:
追獵在這個遊戲裏面是擁有每人口最低DPS與成本/DPS比最高的單位之一。
雖然擁有良好的機動性，他們是非常沒有輸出效率的。ItWhoSpeaks在他的
文章裏面有很好的論述：
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960
我們把他跟槍兵還有HoTS的蛇蛇來做個比較吧：
Marine: 7 DPS, 10.5 DPS (Stimmed), 1 Supply, 7/10.5 DPS per supply
陸戰隊:7/10.5 DPS（打針前/後) 1人口 7/10.5(DPS/人口)
Hydralisk: 14.5 DPS, 2 Supply, 7.25 DPS per supply
蛇蛇: 14.5DPS 2人口 7.25(DPS/人口)
Stalker: 6.9 DPS, 9.8 vs Armored, 2 Supply, 3.45 or 5.4 DPS per supply
追獵 6.9/9.8DPS(輕/重甲) 2人口 3.45/5.4(DPS/人口)
Yikes! The Stalker not only does the least Anti-air damage out of all of
these, but also costs the most. This illustrates why Marines in large numbers
can cut down a flock of Mutas or a pack of Brood Lords at a much faster clip
than their Protoss counterparts. It also shows why very heavy mass Mutalisk
or Corruptor/BL can overwhelm a Protoss player, even if they make lots of
blink Stalkers in response to it – the Stalkers simply don’t kill the air
units fast enough. Let's move on to option 2, Archons.
你看看！追獵擁有最低的對空傷害，而且還是最貴的。這很清楚的說明了
為什麼陸戰海起來可以把飛龍或者少量的寄生王蟲用遠比神族對應單位更
快的速度解決掉。這同時也說明了為什麼海量的飛龍或者是腐飛/大龍可以
輕鬆的把神族玩家搞死，即使他們造了更海量的閃追回應:追獵就是不給力。
我們改來看看白球好了
Archons
The unit of choice for use in conjunction with Vortex, Archons aren't
powerful because of their damage so much as their splash (believe it or not,
against a biological target, Archons do 20 DPS, or 5 damage per supply -
meaning it would take more time for an Archon to kill a biological target
one-on-one than two stimmed marines would the same target!).
這個與黑洞擁有最適搭配的神族單位，其實並不是真的那麼威武：
從 DPS/人口 觀點來看 白球對生化的DPS是20 也就是每人口 DPS 5
在不考慮擴散傷害下 ，白球打死一個生化單位的速度還比兩個打針後的槍兵慢！
However, Archons are limited by the fact that they are on the ground, and
must go past anything (terrain or other enemy units) in their way to get to
the air units they're after. They also have a worker unit speed rather than
fast. This means they must have Colossus support to gnaw through broodlings
and roaches to get at Brood Lords, and that Corruptors can simply fly away
from them and not get hurt because they're faster. So, independent of Vortex,
they're really not that great of an option, and with Vortex, they're too good
of one.
而且，白球還有一個限制是白球身為地面單位的問題：要對空勢必要貼上去（
不管友軍還是敵軍) 才能夠打到敵方的空軍單位。白球本身的速度並不快，
這意味著你必須要有巨像的支援才能衝過那堆小蟲子/蟑螂 才能摸到寄生王蟲本體，
而且腐飛可以很輕鬆的飛過白球頭頂，而且不會受到太多傷害：他們飛的比較快。
換句話說：如果沒有黑洞 白球並不是個好選擇，但是搭配了黑洞與擴散傷害效果
一級棒。
Next, let's look at Psi Storm.
接著，我們來看心靈風暴
Psionic Storm
Psionic Storm is one of the stronger weapons in the Protoss arsenal because
it can punish poor positioning and clumping by opponents. This is why it's
such a great anti-Viking tool in PvT and can defeat very marine-heavy armies
as well.
閃電是神族兵器庫裏面的最強武器之一，因為他可以對於位置不佳與擠成一團
的對手單位給予重傷害，這就是為什麼他是PvT反制維京的重要武器，並且可以
對於非常倚重陸戰隊的兵力組成給予重傷害。
However, its effect is substantially diminished by units that are fast or
have very high amounts of health because they can either "tank" multiple
storms before dying or simply dodge them. Zerg air units all have one or both
of these aspects. Mutalisks are very quick, making Storm tough to use on them
(there's no guarantee of a certain amount of damage being done), and Brood
Lords take a lot of punishment before being brought down. Corruptors are both
beefy (with a whopping 100 health per supply) and fast (as fast or faster
than every Protoss unit except Phoenixes and upgraded Warp Prisms). They're
such an extreme case that I'm going to address them on their own later on in
this post.
但是，對於快速移動或者是擁有高血量的單位就顯的有點像是蚊子叮：在被電死之前
他們早就閃掉或者是他們根本就不怕閃電。蟲族的空軍單位都擁有這些重要的特色：
飛龍跑的快/大龍根本就電不動/腐飛更是電不動也電不到。接下來我會針對這些特色
做更深入的討論：
Before that, let's wrap up with Stargate tech.
但在那隻前 我們先來檢討神族空軍科技吧
Stargate Tech
Stargate tech is admittedly one of the more underwhelming and less effective
tech paths for Protoss, and HotS has seen a lot of focus in making it more
viable. However, even with the addition of the Tempest, it still needs a lot
of work because the fact remains that the units are still very lackluster
when it comes to anti-air and still suffer great vulnerabilities against both
races. I'm going to focus on each unit against Zerg right now.
神族的空軍科技線是目前最被輕視跟殺傷效率最低的科技線，HoTS看來是投注了
很多心力在讓他更好。但是，就算加上了"會飛行的受感染人類"，他看來還是需要
不少功夫，因為在空對空上面依然是非常疲弱不振，而且依然有著一樣的弱點。
不過，在這邊我只會針對PvZ的情況做檢討：
Phoenix - Okay in small numbers versus Mutalisks, poor versus everything
else. Their bonus is versus Light, which makes them clearly anti-Mutalisk
intended, yet they are a poor option versus large numbers of Mutalisks. Every
other Zerg air unit is Armored, so that further hurts their effectiveness.
Last, if you get too many of them, you've committed too much of your supply
to something that can't shoot ground and you can get easily punished for that
later.
鳳凰：簡而言之就是出小數量來打飛龍很划算 但是打其他東西都沒用。本身是
對輕甲攻擊家成，因此讓他變成反飛龍的專家，但是對到海量飛龍還是不怎樣。
其他的蟲族空軍都是重甲，這讓鳳凰的傷害輸出更加可悲。最後，如果你出了
太多這個不能對地的單位，你會因此而被輕易的擊敗。
Void Ray - This unit has gone from what was once a scary, powerful, massable
unit into a slow, clunky, costly, very situational one. You can use it to
fend off roach rushes or do an all-in, but that's about it. It's awful versus
Corruptors, Mutalisks and Infestors which makes them pretty naked when going
after Brood Lords at the back of an army.
虛空：這是一個被寫信哥從強力、威嚇、可以海量作為主力暗黑成緩慢、昂貴、
笨重的非常受限制單位。你可以拿來反制蟑螂Rush/打一波，不過也就大概這樣而已。
對腐飛/飛龍/感染都效果不佳讓他變成非常無力的單位 想要強點大龍更是有如裸奔
一般找死。
Carrier - They're insanely expensive in both cost and supply, slow to make,
and slow your army down by being so sluggish. The fact that they're so slow
makes them vulnerable to being targeted down by Corruptors. In addition, the
fact that they are not as microable as they once were and that they cannot
stay safe while using their range to focus down targets makes them weak as
well. For those of you who haven't seen it yet, check out Liquid`NonY's video
about Carrier micro:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369313
航母： 靠悲貴 不管是人口還是資源耗費，造起來靠悲慢，而且把你的主力部隊搞得
毫無機動性。他們緩慢的天性讓他很容易被腐飛狙擊，而且與一代航母比起來操作性
降低更是讓他無法在一個安全範圍外掩護自己的弱點。有興趣的可以去看LiquidNonY
的影片解說：
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369313
Tempest - This is the one that I want to suggest the most changes to because
it's a new unit and therefore has the biggest chance of making an impact. In
its current state, though, even with the fleet beacon requirement removed,
it's still pitiful in its effect. As it is, it's supposed to be either a
mid-game harrassment unit or a late game anti-Massive unit. It's not great at
either of these roles for a lot of the same reasons a Carrier isn't - it's
big, slow, vulnerable, and expensive, and does poor damage against anything
other than Brood Lords. Even then, they're easily overwhelmed or flanked by
small forces of anti-air units.
暴風： 這就是我希望做出最多變更的單位，因為這是一個新單位 所以有比較大的機會
可以對目前的遊戲造成衝擊。目前來說，雖然不需要艦隊導航台就可以生產，但是還是
一個非常無用的單位：中期的搔擾單位，或者是後期的反巨型單位。目前這兩個目標暴
風都做的不好，跟航母一樣不行：肥大、緩慢、脆弱、昂貴，而且更糟的是對於大龍以外
的單位根本沒有DPS可言。而且就算這樣，有一小波對空單位從側翼突襲就可以毀滅暴風
艦隊。
The Corruptor - It's a "Massive" problem
腐飛：這是個"巨型"的問題
One reason that Corruptor spam is such a huge problem in late-game PvZ is
that every single important late-game unit Protoss has that doesn't come out
of a Gateway is one that can not only be targeted by Corruptors, and is
slower than Corruptors, but they also get the bonus damage dealt to them from
being Massive. Think about it - Mothership, Carrier, Tempest, Colossus, all
of those are Massive and vulnerable to air. This means that they can be
massed without consequence and thrown at a Protoss army and, if not Vortexed,
kill all of the important units. It's not like Terran where too many Vikings
become a liability, though, or like Protoss with too many Phoenixes - you can
then morph them into Brood Lords, so that tech switches to ground-heavy
forces don't become something you need to consider when thinking about how
many Corruptors to make.
一個讓海量腐飛在 PvZ 後期難以解決的原因是每個神族的重要後期單位，只要不是BG
出來的通通都是腐飛可以輕易狙擊的目標，而且都比腐飛移動的慢，雪上加霜的是還
都因為是巨型所以腐飛對他有加成傷害。仔細想一想:聖母/航母/暴風/巨像 通通都是
巨型單位而且對空脆弱。這意味著你可以無後顧之憂的海腐飛，而且沒有被黑洞的情況
下可以直接衝進神族主力裏面大殺特殺。這跟人族造太多維京或者神族造太多鳳凰是
不一樣的：你等等你可以把腐飛變成大龍，所以你並沒有掩護地面困難的問題。
How to Fix It, Tempest Style
怎麼解決
There's been a lot said on these boards about the strength of Gateway units
being too low, and I completely agree with those points. However, it seems
like changing those units isn't really something the design team wants to do
right now. Instead of that, I'd like to advocate for some changes to the
Tempest (and one to the HT) to help it play a bigger role and help us move
away from Vortex-or-die PvZ while having minimal impact on PvT.
TL論壇關於BG單位的強度太弱已經夠多了，而且我也認同這些論點。不過這看來並不是
開發團隊目前想要去調整的對象，因此，我想要說說針對暴風的改進(以及HT)來讓暴風
成為更重要的角色並且遠離一個黑洞定生死的PvZ 同時對PvT的影響降低:
Change #1 - Implement a separate Air-to-Air attack with Splash damage
This would both give Protoss the much-needed ability to punish clumping air
units without Vortex and discourage deathball-style play by making armies
spread out to engage each other.
#1 給暴風一個對空AOE。 這讓神族有懲罰團成一團的空軍除了黑洞以外的選擇，
並且降低死亡之球式的玩法 讓單位們可以拉開成為一個戰線。
Change #2 - Make the Corruptor Massive and/or Lower its Health Pool
As it stands now, there's little reason to get the Fleet Beacon upgrade for
the Tempest, because the other options to deal with Brood Lords are better.
Having the Corruptor be Massive would give the Tempest more punch where it
needs it while still making them vulnerable to groups of smaller anti-air
units. Lowering their health makes sense because of their low cost and high
armor and would allow them to get punished by flying over a bunch of
Stalkers.
#2 讓腐飛成為巨型單位且/或降低他的血量。 目前來說，在VF升級暴風對巨型單位的
加成傷害並不吸引因為其他的反大龍選項看來更好。讓腐飛成為巨型單位可以讓暴風
有用武之地，但是讓暴風依叫對於小型的防空單位脆弱。降低血量是合理的，因為
相對於腐飛的低資源與高防，這讓他們不敢肆無忌憚的飛過一團追獵上面。
Change #3 - Psionic Storm does extra damage versus Massive
#3 閃電對巨型有加成傷害
I think this would be a great one for all matchups. This, combined with the
Corruptor changes above, would now make it so that Brood Lords and Corruptors
can't bathe in Storms while going about their merry broodling-blasting ways.
It would also add some much-needed variability to the PvP late-game matchup -
no longer would you have hordes of Colossi or Carrier deathballs slamming
into one another, but now keeping track of each others Templar, critical
feedbacking of one another, and positioning an army becomes much more
important.
我個人認為這對所有的組合都有良好的促進。跟前面的改變配合起來，這會讓大龍腐飛
不能再承受閃電的攻擊，並且在PvP的後期加入些不同的變化：不用繼續會戰滿天光束
或者航母對打，而是必須去狙擊閃電，互相拼操作反潰，並且良好的陣型跟開戰地點會
變得更重要
-----
大家參考看看? 有些論點很有趣
--
長久以來，我們將許多地方，與許多時刻視為理所當然。
我們對這個理所當然很冷淡，所以理所當然，終於忍受不了悲傷，逃走消失了。
失去之後，我們才重新注意到，這理所當然。
然而今後，也還會有很多的理所當然，漸漸的消失吧。
--
※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 140.113.28.197
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10/17 21:07, 141F
推
10/17 21:16, , 142F
10/17 21:16, 142F
推
10/17 21:17, , 143F
10/17 21:17, 143F
→
10/17 21:17, , 144F
10/17 21:17, 144F
推
10/17 21:27, , 145F
10/17 21:27, 145F
→
10/17 21:38, , 146F
10/17 21:38, 146F
推
10/17 21:48, , 147F
10/17 21:48, 147F
推
10/17 21:49, , 148F
10/17 21:49, 148F
→
10/17 21:50, , 149F
10/17 21:50, 149F
→
10/17 21:50, , 150F
10/17 21:50, 150F
→
10/17 21:52, , 151F
10/17 21:52, 151F
→
10/17 21:52, , 152F
10/17 21:52, 152F
→
10/17 21:53, , 153F
10/17 21:53, 153F
→
10/17 21:53, , 154F
10/17 21:53, 154F
→
10/17 21:53, , 155F
10/17 21:53, 155F
→
10/17 21:57, , 156F
10/17 21:57, 156F
→
10/17 21:57, , 157F
10/17 21:57, 157F
→
10/17 21:58, , 158F
10/17 21:58, 158F
→
10/17 21:58, , 159F
10/17 21:58, 159F
→
10/17 21:59, , 160F
10/17 21:59, 160F
→
10/17 21:59, , 161F
10/17 21:59, 161F
→
10/17 22:01, , 162F
10/17 22:01, 162F
推
10/17 22:23, , 163F
10/17 22:23, 163F
→
10/17 22:23, , 164F
10/17 22:23, 164F
→
10/17 22:24, , 165F
10/17 22:24, 165F
推
10/17 22:27, , 166F
10/17 22:27, 166F
→
10/17 22:28, , 167F
10/17 22:28, 167F
推
10/17 22:49, , 168F
10/17 22:49, 168F
→
10/17 22:50, , 169F
10/17 22:50, 169F
→
10/17 23:19, , 170F
10/17 23:19, 170F
→
10/17 23:20, , 171F
10/17 23:20, 171F
→
10/17 23:20, , 172F
10/17 23:20, 172F
推
10/18 02:05, , 173F
10/18 02:05, 173F
→
10/18 02:07, , 174F
10/18 02:07, 174F
→
10/18 02:10, , 175F
10/18 02:10, 175F
→
10/18 02:11, , 176F
10/18 02:11, 176F
→
10/18 02:14, , 177F
10/18 02:14, 177F
→
10/18 02:15, , 178F
10/18 02:15, 178F
噓
10/18 07:13, , 179F
10/18 07:13, 179F
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