PTT遊戲區 / LoL (英雄聯盟)

Re: [閒聊] 黑切和耳語在砲娘身上性價比

看板LoL (英雄聯盟)作者 (獨孤欲泫)時間12年前 (2012/04/23 17:53), 編輯推噓32(32推 0噓 53→)
留言85則, 32人參與, 最新討論串1/1
Here shall be my conclusion; I am going to include my thoughts on the data at hand,and extrapolate it to what I think is a valid overall summary of which item is better for what situation based on my knowledge of this game. 以上的資料所歸納出來的結論是甚麼? Like nearly everything else in League of Legends, choosing between The Black Cleaver is going to be situational. What champion are you using? What is your playstyle? How well can your team protect you? What kind of armor does your enemy have? Will you get a chance to attack the squishier members, or are you always going to have to focus the tank? Can you do some sustained damage, or must you only poke in order to survive? What does your team need you to do? 你的英雄是哪隻?你的遊戲風格?你的隊伍保你輸出的能力如何?你的對手有沒有疊高物防? 你有沒有機會切對面的薄皮嫩雞?還是你永遠都在打坦?你可以持續輸出嗎?還是你只能以 生存為前提poke?你的隊伍需要你做甚麼? Before I started finishing this post, I heard CLG's Doublelift talking about why he prefers to use Last Whisper to The Black Cleaver. He said that, in a lot of teamfight situations, you’re rarely going to be able to do sustained damage to one target so that you can get TBC stacks up. Rather, you’re going to have to rely on your “upfront burst.” When Vayne condemns someone into a wall, she’s going to want all the armor pen she can get on that target, since she probably won’t have had the time to build up TBC stacks on it first. It really depends on the situation. 我要結束這份報告前，我聽大伯里夫特說為什麼他喜歡出耳語而不出黑切， 他是這麼說的：在大多會戰的狀況中，你很少有機會專貓一個來疊黑切，反而你很依賴 “upfront burst.”(瞬間爆發?) 當汎把對手釘在牆上，他需要最多的物穿，但他可能沒有時間出黑切，出了也沒辦法先疊 高。一切都得看狀況。 So, my take on this is that one dependency is on the champion. If you are playing Vayne, Graves, or Ashe (for example), you are going to want a Last Whisper so their physical damage spells (Condemn, Buckshot/Collateral Damage, and Volley, respectively) are going to do more damage when you’re bursting someone down or poking them. But what about someone like Corki, Tristana, or Kog’Maw? Only one spell out of the groups’ selection does physical damage, and that’s Corki’s Gatling Gun; the rest do magic damage. Furthermore, Trist and Koggy have active and passive attack speed buffs, respectively, so they can stack up TBC on a target that much quicker. And, of course, Corki’s armor reduction from Gatling Gun synergizes with more armor reduction, while reducing the effectiveness of percent-based armor pen. So for these champions, I’m more likely to choose TBC, as it has synergy with AS and armor reduction. Basically, the champion you choose can have a great influence on which of the two items you choose. 所以重點還是取決於你所玩的英雄，如果你玩汎、葛雷夫、艾希，你該買耳語， 因為他們的技能也吃，可以爆發一波。 但是如果你玩庫奇、泡娘、摳個毛，只有一招吃物穿，庫奇有格林機槍，剩下都魔法傷害 。 此外，泡娘和小摳毛都有主動或者被動攻速提升的招式，這樣疊黑切比較快。 而且，庫奇的格林機槍跟黑切相輔相成！切到對面像是沒穿衣服一樣。 對於這些英雄來說，我會選擇黑切，重點就是本身有加攻速或者切防禦的挺適合出黑切。 Most of the rest of the questions I posed should be self-explanatory in answering which item you should choose. Can your team allow you to do sustained damage? Are you more likely to focus on one person during the fight rather than switching targets constantly? Is the enemy, in general, forgoing armor for damage, health, or MR? Does your team lean towards physical damage, where they’d benefit from armor reduction? Do you need to take down towers faster? Then choose The Black Cleaver. Can you only poke? Does the enemy have more armor than you’d like? Is there a champion with a lot of armor, but less health? Does your team need you to burst and get out so you survive – i.e., are they less able to peel enemies from you? Is your role to chunk the tanks so they can’t peel for their team as well? Well, then, it looks like a Last Whisper may be more beneficial. 許多剩下的問題不證自知，你的隊伍允許你持續輸出? 你可以在會戰的時候貓同一個人，而不需要一直轉換目標? 對面不疊物防? 你的隊伍傾向物傷輸出，需要有人降對面防? 你需要更快爆塔? 是的話就選擇黑切吧！ 你只能poke? 對面狂疊物防? 對手有人只撐防不撐血? 你的隊伍需要你爆發一波之後想辦法活下來就好? 是的話就選擇耳語吧！ It is all situational. With this specific setup, the only time you are going to absolutely need a Last Whisper over The Black Cleaver is when every member on the enemy team has over 214 armor, for that is the point at which TBC will always do less damage, regardless of the time spent auto-attacking. (Though, even then you could go take towers with TBC a little faster than with a LW.) Regardless, while there are situations where it is going to be advantageous to choose one over the other, they both fulfill their role well. I think that I can debunk the claim that The Black Cleaver is a ‘noob trap’ item, or even a niche item. I personally feel that it is far superior for Corki over a Last Whisper, but perhaps you feel differently. A lot of the time, it will probably be difficult to tell which will do more damage in that specific situation, so just think on it, and make a conscious effort to decide which will do the job more effectively. 一切都是一句話：看情況。 只有一個狀況你一定得出耳語，那就是對面的防禦已經超過214了， 超過這個值黑切打出來的傷害永遠比耳語低，不管戰鬥過程多久， (不過黑切打塔還是比較快) 無論如何，沒有一個選擇永遠比另一個好，端看角色而言。我想我可以終結那些說黑切是 裝飾品或者白癡才會出的道具的流言， 我個人認為小飛機出這把比出耳語好太多了，但你的看法可能不同， 很多時候，很難證明在某些狀況底下出哪一把比較好， 看完這篇分析以後，希望你們在出裝可以比較有sense一點。 tl;dr: Everything in League of Legends is situational. Neither Last Whisper nor The Black Cleaver is superior to either in all situations; learn to think analytically and determine in what situations one will do more damage than the other. 黑切和耳語沒有一定哪一把比較好，針對不同的狀況，選擇不同的出裝， 學會思考、分析才是最重要的。 -- 推 TerryTam :遠程小兵是你一下 然後塔一下你再吃 03/20 02:54 推 klbba :遠程小兵就你先打一下，塔再打一下，你再打一下 03/20 02:55 → klbba :樓上要跟我在一起嗎 03/20 02:55
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03/20 02:56,
遠程塔一下 你一定能吃 除非你是初期ap
03/20 02:56
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03/20 02:56,
樓上你自戀狂喔？
03/20 02:56
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03/20 02:57,
......我是說klbba
03/20 02:57
-- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 140.132.26.167
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04/23 17:54, , 1F
這篇才是事實。
04/23 17:54, 1F
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04/23 17:54, , 2F
黑切當然沒問題，但絕對要把你到底"能不能"
04/23 17:54, 2F
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04/23 17:55, , 3F
對同個目標進行輸出加進條件。
04/23 17:55, 3F
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04/23 17:55, , 4F
而不是一味的說"AR小於200就是黑切強阿"
04/23 17:55, 4F
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04/23 17:56, , 5F
就算是高端玩corki，如果不把黑切當core item
04/23 17:56, 5F
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04/23 17:56, , 6F
第一件就出，而是三向或者ie，後來通常仍然是轉lw
04/23 17:56, 6F
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04/23 17:56, , 7F
因為高端通常不會做出完全沒有AR這種蠢事。
04/23 17:56, 7F
推
04/23 17:56, , 8F
ar 200 的話第三下開始黑切比較強，就是1.5秒後
04/23 17:56, 8F
推
04/23 17:56, , 9F
推精闢分析
04/23 17:56, 9F
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04/23 17:56, , 10F
希望對方全部都是200AR以上吧
04/23 17:56, 10F
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04/23 17:56, , 11F
我想偷問物穿魔穿對建築有沒有作用@@
04/23 17:56, 11F
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04/23 17:58, , 12F
我覺得你一直糾結在這個"AR 200黑切較強"的點真的很
04/23 17:58, 12F
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04/23 17:58, , 13F
處刑者對建築有沒有作用 我好懶得自己測ˊˇˋ
04/23 17:58, 13F
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04/23 17:58, , 14F
怪。實際玩過就知道很多時候你根本沒辦法站在那邊
04/23 17:58, 14F
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04/23 17:58, , 15F
basic attack，更多時候需要移動跟改變目標輸出。
04/23 17:58, 15F
推
04/23 17:58, , 16F
鬼刀+黑切+被動歐拉夫
04/23 17:58, 16F
推
04/23 17:59, , 17F
重點是當對方明明有四個人沒出AR 一個大約150AR
04/23 17:59, 17F
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04/23 17:59, , 18F
大家還是喜歡出耳語 還認為耳語比較強
04/23 17:59, 18F
推
04/23 17:59, , 19F
話說，普攻叫做auto attack
04/23 17:59, 19F
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04/23 18:00, , 20F
如果是這個情況 有多少人會認為黑切比較好？
04/23 18:00, 20F
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04/23 18:00, , 21F
你出黑切還可能被笑怎麼不出耳語
04/23 18:00, 21F
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04/23 18:00, , 22F
庫奇的E最高可以切40物防 加上黑切再切45物防 總共85
04/23 18:00, 22F
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04/23 18:00, , 23F
有夠可怕= =
04/23 18:00, 23F
推
04/23 18:01, , 24F
像泡娘這種靠IE+Q招秒對方 又拉最遠距離變換目標打
04/23 18:01, 24F
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04/23 18:01, , 25F
當然還是耳語啊
04/23 18:01, 25F
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04/23 18:01, , 26F
right，當我IE PD都出完，對面AR還是都不撐
04/23 18:01, 26F
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04/23 18:01, , 27F
出黑切就是得疊，不然效益就是比LW低
04/23 18:01, 27F
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04/23 18:01, , 28F
然後我回家又有1650甚至2800，那我就會認真考慮黑切
04/23 18:01, 28F
推
04/23 18:01, , 29F
我認為還有一個考量因素,黑切是降對方物防,代表其他A
04/23 18:01, 29F
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04/23 18:01, , 30F
d還能有相輔相成的效應
04/23 18:01, 30F
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04/23 18:02, , 31F
另外庫奇的E距離並不長，要切滿代表對面大男在睡覺..
04/23 18:02, 31F
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04/23 18:02, , 32F
像上次韓國隊伍打雙AD，corki + graves，就是corki
04/23 18:02, 32F
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04/23 18:03, , 33F
Corki出黑切是裱對線對手的 不是會戰表大男的
04/23 18:03, 33F
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04/23 18:03, , 34F
出黑切切歪對面，然後砲叔成神啊。但這是論外
04/23 18:03, 34F
推
04/23 18:03, , 35F
你會考慮黑切 但多少新手會直接遺忘這item?
04/23 18:03, 35F
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04/23 18:03, , 36F
E不常嗎 好歹也比普攻長了
04/23 18:03, 36F
推
04/23 18:03, , 37F
物穿對塔無效
04/23 18:03, 37F
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04/23 18:03, , 38F
所以你這篇到底是要討論還是要給新手看。
04/23 18:03, 38F
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04/23 18:04, , 39F
喔對 不要再有"飛機的E招好短我都疊不滿"這種問題了
04/23 18:04, 39F
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04/23 18:04, , 40F
Corki的E是600 普攻是550
04/23 18:04, 40F
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04/23 18:04, , 41F
討論不能給新手看？ 所以這裡全部是是9000+?
04/23 18:04, 41F
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04/23 18:05, , 42F
為什麼原原po爆氣了XD
04/23 18:05, 42F
推
04/23 18:05, , 43F
所以重點是不管紅物穿還紅AD,都適用這套理論嗎?
04/23 18:05, 43F
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04/23 18:05, , 44F
既然是討論的話你就沒必要一直搬出那種
04/23 18:05, 44F
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04/23 18:05, , 45F
"阿就是新手都不愛出啊！"的言論
04/23 18:05, 45F
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04/23 18:05, , 46F
其實這篇文章早點貼出來也不用一堆爭論了。
04/23 18:05, 46F
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04/23 18:06, , 47F
而是正常討論到底什麼情況，怎樣會比較好。
04/23 18:06, 47F
推
04/23 18:09, , 48F
Corki E比普攻長!
04/23 18:09, 48F
推
04/23 18:10, , 49F
"新手"常常會被Corki的蓋特林機槍視覺效果給蒙騙
04/23 18:10, 49F
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04/23 18:10, , 50F
以為沒有打到 其實只要你普攻有打到目標
04/23 18:10, 50F
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04/23 18:10, , 51F
目標鐵定受E招影響 就是這麼簡單
04/23 18:10, 51F
推
04/23 18:10, , 52F
我比較好奇如果出黑切的順序 是黑切>IE 還是IE>黑切?
04/23 18:10, 52F
推
04/23 18:10, , 53F
玩AD幾乎很少有爽爽的射的時候 只要戰況相差不大
04/23 18:10, 53F
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04/23 18:11, , 54F
黑切>IE
04/23 18:11, 54F
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04/23 18:11, , 55F
都會被3人以上focusQQ
04/23 18:11, 55F
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04/23 18:11, , 56F
如果都出IE了 在出黑切會沒AS 沒cri
04/23 18:11, 56F
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04/23 18:11, , 57F
謝謝
04/23 18:11, 57F
推
04/23 18:14, , 58F
順風有三四個人頭在手我覺得可以IE>黃雙>黑切
04/23 18:14, 58F
推
04/23 18:18, , 59F
AR越高越沒效率 越低會有用 所以當對方沒防裝時你就
04/23 18:18, 59F
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04/23 18:18, , 60F
會知道有多痛
04/23 18:18, 60F
推
04/23 18:24, , 61F
所以要出黑切 一定是第一件大裝(下路AD)
04/23 18:24, 61F
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04/23 18:24, , 62F
IE後再出黑切=useless
04/23 18:24, 62F
推
04/23 18:25, , 63F
好 以後都出黑切
04/23 18:25, 63F
推
04/23 18:32, , 64F
效益IE完勝 爆擊跟增傷差很多
04/23 18:32, 64F
推
04/23 18:45, , 65F
IE貴1K 要是還輸誰要出啊XD
04/23 18:45, 65F
推
04/23 18:53, , 66F
這篇事實沒錯 但是沒數據分析哪來的誰適合誰?
04/23 18:53, 66F
推
04/23 18:56, , 67F
推這篇 爆發型用耳語
04/23 18:56, 67F
推
04/23 19:12, , 68F
推翻譯
04/23 19:12, 68F
推
04/23 19:37, , 69F
corki到底算不算爆發XDD
04/23 19:37, 69F
推
04/23 19:39, , 70F
推
04/23 19:39, 70F
推
04/23 19:43, , 71F
推
04/23 19:43, 71F
推
04/23 19:52, , 72F
像大叔就必買耳語 不管對方防多少都一樣
04/23 19:52, 72F
推
04/23 20:00, , 73F
我CORKI都會先買閃耀再補1650 這樣要出啥??
04/23 20:00, 73F
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04/23 21:26, , 74F
IE啊 增加閃耀劍效果 或是小冰槌
04/23 21:26, 74F
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04/23 21:29, , 75F
你有閃耀劍 買一把1650 閃耀劍效果發動等於買兩把...
04/23 21:29, 75F
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04/23 21:30, , 76F
但是小冰槌有效果有AD又便宜 而且比較快三相
04/23 21:30, 76F
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04/23 21:41, , 77F
閃耀只計算基礎攻擊力
04/23 21:41, 77F
推
04/23 21:43, , 78F
corki E 比想像中長喔 比普攻長一點
04/23 21:43, 78F
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04/23 22:20, , 79F
基礎攻擊力不是AD的意思嗎0.0?
04/23 22:20, 79F
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04/23 22:21, , 80F
不會是指角色的能力值吧...
04/23 22:21, 80F
推
04/23 22:24, , 81F
不算綠字 就是基礎攻擊
04/23 22:24, 81F
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04/23 22:26, , 82F
假設ashe一開始ad數值是46+10 10就是符文天賦裝備
04/23 22:26, 82F
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04/23 22:26, , 83F
46就是基礎
04/23 22:26, 83F
推
04/24 01:00, , 84F
剛剛試了一場炮娘出黑切 還OK
04/24 01:00, 84F
推
04/24 09:34, , 85F
翻貓還蠻有味道的
04/24 09:34, 85F
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